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Seems that mostry people here never played DAoC: excellent and funny endgame. A lot of fun on frontiers, killing hibs and migs.

Originally posted by uncletoma

Seems that mostry people here never played DAoC: excellent and funny endgame. A lot of fun on frontiers, killing hibs and migs.

Isn’t DaoC mostly about PVP though?  I personally don’t consider that endgame as most games, like WoW, you can do it as you level and it doesn’t change through the levels except by giving you different objectives or new maps.  Not saying there aren’t people who only PVP at endgame, just that most MMORPGs are either built with a PVP endgame in mind or a PVE endgame in mind.  Like comparing Darkfall to WoW.  Both have PVE, both have PVP but you and I both know which gamer caters to who.

So DaoC would be in the Darkfall column while this article talks more about PVE endgame in games like WoW and Lotro.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by uncletoma

Seems that mostry people here never played DAoC: excellent and funny endgame. A lot of fun on frontiers, killing hibs and migs.

Isn’t DaoC mostly about PVP though?  I personally don’t consider that endgame as most games, like WoW, you can do it as you level and it doesn’t change through the levels except by giving you different objectives or new maps.  Not saying there aren’t people who only PVP at endgame, just that most MMORPGs are either built with a PVP endgame in mind or a PVE endgame in mind.  Like comparing Darkfall to WoW.  Both have PVE, both have PVP but you and I both know which gamer caters to who.

So DaoC would be in the Darkfall column while this article talks more about PVE endgame in games like WoW and Lotro.

Not only is that not remotely close to how PvP works in the majority of real MMOs (it seems you’ve never played a game with worthwhile PvP if you’re talking about maps and objectives) but DAoC wasn’t purely a PvP title. It had some of the best raiding to be found in the MMO sphere, and still does. The encounters and raids in DAoC are far beyond anything I’ve seen in WoW’s little 8 main “raids”.  200 man dragon raids were something epic to see.

DAoC is a great example of a game that is properly designed to balance crafting, PvP, and PvE all in one without diminishing the value of any of them. The PvP was the standout feature of course because at that point no one had managed to do PvP on that scale (and still haven’t, except for maybe Darkfall) but there was raiding for those who enjoyed it and the PvP didn’t mess with the PvE players.

And yes, PvP is the best kind of end game, because it’s constant generated by PLAYERS therefore, constantly changing and almost always fresh and interesting. If you think PvP only consists of those weird FPS like CTF rounds in WoW… you need to look up some other MMOs 😛

Originally posted by sanicek

I can’t believe so many people are in blind agreement. If you don’t like end game and dungeons do not interest you, why do you even play (Edit:) theme-park MMOs? From PVE perspective, dungeons and in particular engame raids are THE concepts around which MMOs revolve. Questing is essentially a single player non challenging gameplay. Why would I want to do that in an MMO, where the storytelling is super-boring and any outcomes irrelevant? If I want that kind of experience, I’ll fire some awesome single player RPG where the storytelling, quests and progress are actually entertaining and the results affect the world with truly epic proportions.

Cooperative PVE is the thing I expect (and require) from my MMOs, as mentioned above, bland irrelevant and in vast majority single player quests are concepts better served elsewhere ( we will see how Bioware will solve this dilemma). Only in MMOs can you experience cooperative group play that requires constant cooperation of the whole group to overcome fights with interesting mechanics. I’m going to focus on WOW here, because it best illustrates the endgame concept and is my game of choice. All my characters in WOW except the 1st one were leveled up almost purely from running dungeons (and since the XP change sometimes via PVP). And those dungeons and raids are what keeps me subscribed to WOW (belive me, I tried many many other MMOs), because I haven’t seen those kinds of instances anywhere else (DDO and LOTRO was kinda nice, but WOW still wins by huge margin) . Every clone outh there replicates the super-boring quest and world part and utterly fails to make interesting dungeons with interesting boss fights.

For the PVP folk, it’s different in every game, many are PVP oriented with RVR etc, where obviously level cap levels the playing field. In WOW you have battlegrounds and arenas, which are valid end-game options, this time what shines is the balance, again group cooperation (as opposed to mindless zerg in many games), and super fluid combat.

 From my rant you may think that I’m some kind of WOW fanboy, while in fact that is not true. I realize the game has many flaws and I would love to start playing something something different. I tried DDO, LOTRO, WAR, AOC, COX, Aion, Vanguard and plenthora of lesser MMOs, but none of them retained my interest exactly because they lacked good dungeon content (or equivalent coordinated PVE experience) and solid end game content based on that.

 *This post does not include sandboxes, as was said by mrcalhou above, there the whole game is endgame, especially because there is no set goal and player actions affect environment. Sadly the current crop does not interest due to lack of quality or game mechanics I can’t stomach. Still waiting for “EVE with twitch combat” kind of game.

Negative, DAOC was a theme park styled MMO with and end game no less however it played very differently than the modern MMO’s of today.

There is no law that says a theme park MMO’s end game has to consist of dungeon raiding and gear grinds, that’s a notion ground into most gamers heads today because they don’t realize there really were and can still be alternatives, and who knows, they actually might enjoy a change.

This thread examples a very good point i am always happy to mention, which is that DAOC is the finest mmorpg ever made to this date. Released before most people had computers or the interent connectiosn to play them.  (With the odd side effect of having the most effeciant network code of any mmorpg).  I was pondering going back to daoc (i have many times before), but i am a social player and the 1.7k total population at peak times is a bit too low for me. But it just too sad, that advertisment and popularity rule over quality.

WoW ruined mmo’s period. Thank you blizzard for making every game out there Easy Mode now. Because of you…there will never be a game where fear is a factor. And when I say fear those of you that made the long journy in Everquest know what I’m talking about. Think to yourself, Do you remember the first time you got blinded in EQ? Ya, I do…and I said WTF? Did my moniter just die? Then it wears off and you like oh crap i just got agro’d by 2 other mobs and the fear of running hoping you don’t die because the journy back to your corpse will be even more dangerous then getting to your camp spot. So again, I applaud Blizzard for ruining the MMO genre. Thank you blizzard for Easy Mode, Thank you for that I win button. Thank you for the challengeless grind…..

I could go on and on..sorry everyone I just hate WoW lol.